Hi all, thank you for reading my post. modlod link
Clocks got banned first after suggesting that the OP try to be a genuine friend and try to find some common cause in real life rather than alienating people over abstract geopolitical factionalism:
I raised the issue that censoring earnest advice as ‘tankie apologia’ and preemtively writing off any common cause/ isolating people is no way to win people over either as friends or comrades.
I then got banned for this one, for continuing to find ‘the tankie triad’ extremely silly:
yeah that’s the context, I was just laughing because:
- only Lemmy users with an axe to grind call them that
- it sounds really silly, like they’re a nemesis to dr venture.
- I’m supposed to be the melodramatic one yet every day I get one-upped 😔
screenshot:
I’m not here to tell them how to run their comm, my position is that this is way more draconian than anything I’ve run into in any of ‘the tankie triad’. The same groups of people loudly complaining about censorship on ‘tankie’ run instances don’t seem to have a problem enforcing vague/arbitrary vibes based censorship in their spaces.
I do not think I have seen you once criticize China or Russia, because if you had you would be more in line with me than you think.
Every government has done things worthy of praise and condemnation. To me an anarchist, at the very least, would be shitting on all the governments from the US to the CCP to the DPRK and everywhere in between
But I don’t see that from you or any other known tankie who also claims to be an anarchist. You have a pretty clear pattern of criticizing the West and then covering for what should be criticized of the CCP/Russia/NK etc.
Maybe this comes because I prefer local political organizing, but I live in the US right now, my current government is the one I have the biggest issues with, and thus I voice them online because it’s relevant to me. The current government in Russia sucks ass, what do you want me to say? if I was living there I’d probably be getting persecuted for being trans. It actually sucks because even apart from this war it makes it almost impossible for me to visit family.
I actually have some optimism for china it’s true, but like many places there’s issues, I’m not in favor of territorial land grabs in general, no matter the US provocation. They can also be very conservative but it’s also hard for me to judge honestly from the other side of the planet and not speaking the language. I have seen enough trans people in china talking about their experience to say that it’s possible to live a life there as a trans person- it just takes having a supportive family. Unless you want to end up homeless that’s also generally the case in the US. I don’t like seeing forced labor, but the american alternative next door was two decades of occupying afghanistan. I disapprove of prisons that turn prisoners into slave labor, but if the alternative is decades of widespread counter-insurgency and indiscriminate bombings I think I’m also capable of pointing to the lesser evil.
You’ve said more than every tankie I’ve ever seen, I don’t even think you’re that much of a tankie. You’ve always been the “odd one out” tankie whenever I’ve seen you around.
Do you honestly not see what the folks you defend say? Just saying “Russia sucks” earnestly like that, is probably the first time I’ve seen that. The closest I’ve ever seen out of a tankie was similar to “even if they are that bad, it’s totally worth it because the West is sooo much worse…”
This has got to be the first politically related comment from you I’ve ever upvoted. Ya know Diva I’ve never tagged you as a tankie or defender like the others, I could never find a proper tag for your profile, your comments are always…odd with what I’ve come to expect from tankies and their defenders.
I’ll take the compliment, I do try to be level-headed.
I’ve actually lurked on hexbear for some time, specifically because I was getting a feel for the culture. I haven’t seen anything I would classify as ‘patriotic’ socialism. Those types get roundly mocked when they show up. There are a lot of positive opinions of the USSR, but I haven’t seen anyone seriously saying Russia in the current day is anything but a reactionary hellhole to live in. They generally will point to the dissolution of the USSR and the liberalization of the economy as part of the reason for that, and frankly I would agree with that assessment.
But I have seen those kinds of comments, ok take [email protected] out of the equation and the “out of context” screenshots as you call them.
I have personally read and even gotten into “debates” with the infamous .ml tankies like davel, dessalines and yogthos that did say things like Russia is great and Putin is a great leader fully justified to invade Ukraine, that there is no censorship in China and that NK isn’t a brutal dictatorship
What’s the rationale there?
I’m not trying to play dumb but I really haven’t come across anyone seriously saying Russia is great, but people have dumb takes and do heavy handed shit in the heat of the moment all the time so who knows. Either way my point is this isn’t like ‘the thing’ where anyone left alone in the room with a tankie for 5 minutes is going get converted into an alien bent on world domination, they’re just other humans with a different set of life experiences and trying to conflate them (or anyone ‘defending’ them) with hardened bigots/fascists is just needlessly divisive: doing their work for them, in my opinion.
Especially when it’s other trans people. We have enough issues right now with our government, how can we be putting up resistance if we’re too busy spending time cutting off segments of our own community because they’re failing geopolitics purity tests.
Yeah I don’t quite get this at all. There are some pretty openly vile tankies on the tankie instances. There’s one in the other post right now lambasting libertarian socialism and proudly supporting dictatorship. I don’t understand why anyone would defend these people.
People arrive at class consciousness in different ways. I value people that I might not agree with 100% but know I can count on to show up or offer up resources when it matters because they actually care. Sometimes the person positioned and motivated to do the work is going to be the one showing up in an ushanka with a USSR flag. I’m not trying to sound condescending, but I’ve been around for a while and you don’t really get to be picky about who you organize with in real life. It may be uncomfortable to think about, but if there’s work to get done you’re probably going to find you value an extra set of hands more than policing abstract ideological purity for each and every person.
People who you form long term working relationships with will find common ground with you. It’s one thing for a meme comm to be doing the ‘authoritarian anti-authoritarianism’ bit, I think I can see the humor in that, but the person asking for advice on how to deal with a friend with a differing opinion is going to end up with one fewer friend if they take some of that advice seriously.
Tankies have no class consciousness. If you wanna work with these people then great for you. I’ve seen a lot of evil opinions from .ml users (the ones that are tankies, not all of them obv.) and I really doubt you somehow have not. We don’t have to tolerate them on 196 however.
It’s not about purity. Go look at what OBJECTIONS is saying in the other post. They’re not a leftist, and they admit their propensity for dictatorship quite eagerly over and over. They’re not alone in their opinions on .ml.
Nothing abstract about not tolerating auths.
Edit: It’s like that saying about eating dinner with nazis. If you are so adamantly protecting tankies then why should I believe you aren’t one.
can you clarify what “evil opinions” mean besides something you disagree with
I read the exchange, I don’t see what really was so objectionable (pun intended), Marxists bringing up on authority is practically a meme, but say you’re actually trying to be a ‘libertarian socialist’, are you going to be identifying any attempts at socialist revolution as authoritarian until there’s one with 100% consensus ahead of time? what about the factory owners who would rather die than give up their class?
If you’re advocating ending real life friendships over geopolitical disagreements that neither person are in a position to affect instead of building solidarity, you’re doing the work for capitalists and fascists for them. Whatever ideology you claim to have will remain relegated to online as a result.
Where have I stated that I’m against revolutions? I’m against dictatorship and oligarchy.
Anyways, you’ve made it clear your not an anarchist despite all your claims. You can’t seriously see nothing objectionable with the stuff OBJECTIONS is saying
okay, but you realize that revolutions don’t generally happen with complete consensus, and to the former oligarch you are going to be the authoritarian tyrant demanding their stuff. How do you square that circle?
Back to the vibes based judging, I can tell it’s a comfortable reflex for you. I’m absolutely an anarchist, it’s pretty rude to tell other people what they believe, and I’m not sure you would appreciate if it happened in reverse.
I did mention that by monomaniacally going after an increasingly vague definition of ‘tankie’ you’re doing the work of fascists and capitalists for them. I still wouldn’t be comfortable assuming you’re not really an anarchist just because I disagree with your behavior, I would just say that you’re misguided.
I’m not interested in continuing a back and forth if it’s going to just be bad faith declarations, so I’ll disengage if you’re planning to continue that