I have problems with people who abstained. The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
Democrats then: “We’ll win without appealing to Arabs in Michigan or anyone who demands we stop funding Israel. Shut them out of the DNC and scold them at every turn. Who cares how they react or that they’re forming PACs like ‘Arabs for Trump.’ We don’t need their votes.”
Democrats now: “We lost because you STUPID Palestine-lovers wouldn’t vote for us. Your country needed your votes, Gaza needed your votes. It’s actually your fault that we didn’t bother appealing to you.”
“We don’t need you! We never needed you! Every one of you is a paid Russian actor! We will win with Chaney and Romney!”
“GOD PLEASE WE NEEDED YOU! WHY DIDN’T YOU TRUST US?! WE CHASED AFTER THE REPUBLICANS TO MAKE YOU LOVE US!”
The more I think about it, the more this sort of gaslighting reminds me of Eve Online shenanigans. Which is fair, after all, users like Jibrish moderate r/eve like they do r/conservative.
So basically, still in denial about how Trump and Netanyahu are going to absolutely wipe out Gaza from history now while gaslighting’ing as hard as r/conservative. The overlap with the way Trump voters handle politics is astounding.
Gaza had been getting wiped out by Biden supplied bombs for over a year. Trump wouldn’t be able to talking about “rebuilding” gaza now if Biden hadn’t already helped demolish it.
You’ve promoted trump as being the rebuilder of Gaza enough that all doubt regarding your motives here have been removed.
You’ve purposefully left out the fact that he has recently agreed to send Israel $1BN and a fleet of bulldozers, (something even his **allies** are condemning as an attempt to “_ethnic cleanse_.” Palestine) as part of an ultimatum where he told the Palestinians to either leave their homes forever, or become one with the craters their homes will become if they don’t.
The Olympic-level athletics it takes to side-step this fact and twist current events around to still make what is currently happening as being Biden’s fault while trying to posture trump as the one to fix things- can only be performed by someone…. let’s say, ”loyal”, enough to still believe his bullshit
I put “rebuilding” in quotations because I know he doesn’t have good intentions. You don’t have to be a trump fan to hate genocide regardless of the perpetrator
Trump and Netanyahu are going to absolutely wipe out Gaza
The fact that it’s already been entirely demolished from the Biden admin kindve nullifies this talking point though.
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I’m talking about the strategic decision the Democrats made to not make concessions to the people inflamed by the genocide in Gaza. In no way did I deny that Trump is far worse than Kamala/Biden. Pointing out that Kamala/Biden made a conscious decision to not move left on this issue isn’t gaslighting, not that you’re even using the term correctly
Americans had one vote, and you guys continue to gaslight what it effectively was, for Trump or against Trump. What it wasn’t was an opportunity to change the system by making a political statement, and now all anyone who has fallen for this rhetoric has done is cemented where it’s heading to now. To change it you would have had to work outside the system. Now, even attempting to do so is far more likely to get you locked up. Congrats.
you guys continue to gaslight what it effectively was
You keep using that word but I’m not sure you know what means.
What it wasn’t was an opportunity to change the system by making a political statement
I’m not even advocating for people to vote third party or boycott the election. I’m just making the argument that if a political party wants a group of people’s votes, they should court those people. If they fail to do so, and those people choose not to vote for them, the political party only has itself to blame
Don’t worry, the US looks like US voters won’t have to worry about being able to have any effective choice for much longer.
if a political party wants a group of people’s votes, they should court those people. If they fail to do so, and those people choose not to vote for them, the political party only has itself to blame
You seem to understand this, yet apparently cannot accept that you are not the only group that the party wants (read: needs) to court.
As shitty as it is, the Israel lobby has a stranglehold on politics in the US. Both major parties are beholden to them, and need to bend over backwards to try to keep these groups happy, otherwise their campaign is dead in the water. That is facts.
The reality is, in this case, those two groups are mutually exclusive. You cannot appease both (you will just end up alienating them all). One of those groups is much larger and far more influential than the other, and has the power and will to destroy your chances of winning.
They courted the second group because its literally the only possible way they can win.
Despite what lemmy might have you believe, leftist thought is not the default in most of the US.
Become big enough and influential enough that you need to be courted, otherwise they have no reason to give a shit what you think.
The Israel lobby has a stranglehold on politics in the US. Both major parties are beholden to them, and need to bend over backwards to try to keep these groups happy, otherwise their campaign is dead in the water
The assertion that the Israel lobby would destroy Biden for simply calling a ceasefire after unequivocally supporting Israel’s post-October 7 actions, is utterly unfounded. The kind of strong condemnation of the Zionist project that would make AIPAC walk is something Biden/Harris would never do.
On the pro-Palestine side, my view is that all the Harris campaign had to show was progress, either a ceasefire or a policy break with Biden, to get most of the protesters back on side. But I’m not 100% on whether she had the political skill to walk that tightrope.
I do think you make my point for me, though. The party did the calculus, and came out on the side that they see AIPAC support as more valuable than the pro-Palestine vote. With that in mind, the party should own that decision and not vilify the voters they scorned for not supporting them anyway. People would be a lot less angry if they just accept that they got the strategy wrong in Michigan and commit to doing things differently next time. But they won’t, because this is a party that never learns its lessons.
“We offered nothing and lost to a liar who said they would get something if he came back into office. Why did we lose?”
“We said everything was going great when the public was facing hardships and being targeted by systemic and economic inequality, and the dude lied and said he’d solve it. Why did we lose?”
“The last guy was unpopular and didn’t push back on Trump to get him jail. And then we said we’d do nothing different as Americans are facing homeless and their bodily autonomy being ripped away from them. How did we lose?”
“We courted Republicans who openly hate our voter base, alienated them by saying we don’t need you, and Republicans are too brainwashed to vote for anyone but Republicans. Why did we lose?”
The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
Give them something to vote for. You can write articles of many paragraphs to analyze the course of the election, but in the end it boils down to this: The DNC pissed off too many of their voters and offered nothing in return.
Exactly this! You can’t just “lesser of two evils” your way through life as you slide towards hell. “Lesser of two evils” isn’t a choice, it’s a hostage situation.
The lesser of the two evils didn’t go after the bigger evil, offered nothing, said the economy was doing great as people suffered higher rent and groceries, and then wondered why people listened to the lying devil saying that they would fix their problems.
They don’t want to offer solutions, they want votes.
Y’know what this thread has made me realize? All the dumb memes of “the left fighting the left” are bullshit. I can respectfully debate other people on the left with me. I can change their minds about some things, they can change my mind on some things, we can come to compromises. I don’t agree with the communist 100%, but I agree with them at least 70-80%, and would happily work alongside them to accomplish that 70-80%.
You know who loves infighting though? Centrists who have deluded themselves into thinking they are leftists. You can find comment after comment in this thread from right-leaning centrists, gleefully demanding that they were “right all along” and how everything is our fault for just not being as smart as them. There is no political group that loves infighting as much as them, even more than the fascists. They want to spend the next four years trying to find out all the ways they can assign blame to the left, instead of organizing and doing anything.
Liberals thinking they are leftists refusing to realize they are actually conservatives in everything but brandng, but never having the dawn of enlightenment on that they are wrong, not the people who have been using the terms for centuries.
The irony in this statement is palpable.
Oh hey it’s the liberal troll who is smug and hates everyone who doesn’t blindly agree with their favorite leader.
How goes the stalking and alienating your allies?
The irony in this statement is also, palpable. Non-voters that blame ACTUAL voters for trump aren’t allies.
That depends on what you want to accomplish.
If the only thing that matters to you is going to the polls every 1-2 years, than non voters are meaningless.
If you want to transform society. Voting is only one vector. Unions, mutual aid, protest, consciousness raising, and so on don’t have anything to do will polls, and non voters can be valuable allies.
Sure bud. Lemme know whenever we can criticize the people you pay to bootlick.
It’s fucking hilarious how, suddenly- the protest-vote/non-vote ignorati are pleading with everyone to unify- while ignoring the fact that they were the ones that told us all to fuck off when we were trying to rally everyone to stand against the exact thing that that resulted from Their bullshit protesting.
I fucking called it!
I said that they’d all disappear after the election, and then return as victims of their refusal to unify against trump- and that is exact what is happening.
I hope they all enjoy the bed they made. I sincerely hope the cacophony of all the suffering they caused doesn’t keep them awake all night.
So is that a “no you can’t criticize my Dear Leader”?
They can’t answer since they were bots
🤖 I LOVE [america] SO MUCH I MUST VOTE FOR THE [blue] CANIDATE NO MATTER WHAT I AM TOLD
Hope you like the consequences of [not voting blue for virtue signalling]
I voted blue. I am just willing to not idolize the candidates I vote for.
My original comment was against people who incited to abstain or to vote third party tho. Yeah I agree with never idolizing a politician
Fair enough, sorry if I seemed more angry at you than anyone else. I’ve had a… Wild month and a half in my family.
have gotten multiple answers. opinion debunked. get real.
Weird how you got downvoted for the simple truth. 🧐
I have a (conspiracy) theory that those “genocide Joe” and “killer Kamala” folk are astroturfing for MAGA.
Yup that is a conspiracy theory and super not cool of you.
It’s mostly information warfare from the various social media. There have already been a few analyses showing that pro-Republican anti-Democrat sentiment was algorithmically pushed on tiktok, Facebook, X(obviously), Instagram, YouTube, etc. I do believe a lot of people even here on lemmy were Russian/Chinese just stoking the flames because a divided america is good for them.
Of course there’s absolutely evidence of pro-Republican, anti-Democrat manipulation. But find me evidence algorithm manipulation of pro-Palestine anti-Democrat sentiment. Otherwise you are doing some pretty hateful fearmongering.
The “everyone on here is a Russian bot” narrative here is so embarrassing. Get real.
I certainly didn’t say everyone just that they’re here and they enjoy stoking the flames. Propaganda is everywhere from all sides.
The “sides” are not even remotely the same
I think there are significantly more “useful idiots” than actual state actors trying to sow division. Most of them probably had good intentions, they just refused to listen to reason.
It’s a funny and depressing situation that Lemmy users are so adamant that no one could possibly have a different perspective than them and if they do they must be Russian assets.
Despite those exact positions being reflected in real human American/western political voices–when it shows up in our special little space suddenly it’s spoooooky foreign astroturfing. I believe the kids call that behavior “cope.” XD
All the .ml crap that is suddenly silent was often revealed to be pro-ccp accounts doing exactly that.
Source?
Downvotes aren’t citations, I’m asking for proof of China’s actions. Don’t downvote and ignore the truth like Republicans.
Go read old posts, I’m not here to spoon feed you out of your ignorance.
So that’s a no on giving a source on that claim like Republicans…
Edit: Downvotes aren’t citations.
Why would I save links to ML clowns getting called out or shown to be shills? What an absurd thing to request. Source: Lemmy. Dig deeper on your own, it’s not my job.
