Hi all, thank you for reading my post. modlod link
Clocks got banned first after suggesting that the OP try to be a genuine friend and try to find some common cause in real life rather than alienating people over abstract geopolitical factionalism:
I raised the issue that censoring earnest advice as ‘tankie apologia’ and preemtively writing off any common cause/ isolating people is no way to win people over either as friends or comrades.
I then got banned for this one, for continuing to find ‘the tankie triad’ extremely silly:
yeah that’s the context, I was just laughing because:
- only Lemmy users with an axe to grind call them that
- it sounds really silly, like they’re a nemesis to dr venture.
- I’m supposed to be the melodramatic one yet every day I get one-upped 😔
screenshot:
I’m not here to tell them how to run their comm, my position is that this is way more draconian than anything I’ve run into in any of ‘the tankie triad’. The same groups of people loudly complaining about censorship on ‘tankie’ run instances don’t seem to have a problem enforcing vague/arbitrary vibes based censorship in their spaces.
YDI. Leftist unity is bullshit tankies spout when they plan on murdering leftists as soon as we help them get into power. I wouldn’t expect any less from a .ML user though.
The absolute gall of you to come here, on an actually leftist instance, to complain we aren’t being nice enough to tankies.
For anyone wondering why we have such strict rules regarding tankies in our community, it’s because they have a tendency to try to worm their way into leftist spaces. Tankies constantly try to convince everyone that they are leftists and that being opposed to working with them is “leftist infighting”, yet they will defend nation states which oppress unions, commit genocides, or do straight up imperialism. All the same things that capitalist nations do. They either embrace these things or deny they happened, or explain that they were somehow necessary. Some are earnest in how they try to convince others, and some know their stances are not popular and try to be subtle.
Tankies are not leftists, and disagreeing with them is not arbitrary. Based on this we have decided to not platform them on 196. This is mentioned in the sidebar and anyone who does not like this is free to go elsewhere. Additionally, we usually give a warning if the infringing comments are not too bad. Both instances posted about here were instances where they were warned yet continued with their behavior.
Edit: We also don’t mind tankies being active on 196, we only mind them defending tankies or proselytizing.
If Marxists are not leftist, I do not know who is.
I described authoritarians. Socialists, communists, and anarchists are not tankies unless they defend authoritarian regimes.
but diva didn’t do that
Well, they have dominated Marxist politics for quite a while, and I am not sure you can say they are not leftists because they are authoritarian, they have a lot more in common ideologically with other Marxists/socialists than the right, just because they prefer certain methods does not mean they are not leftists, and they do have traits that have always been associated with leftism, like opposition to tradition, monarchy, even capitalism, desire for revolution, etc.
If the “certain methods” they prefer are killing all other leftists when they get into power, then they don’t get to hang out in our spaces. Do you even understand how stupid that sounds?
Just because you do not want them near your spaces does not mean they are not leftists.
I understand perfectly well how stupid that sounds, possibly better than you.
Just as long as you’re aware of your stupidity, bootlicker.
I am not a Marxist.
Very rude behaviour from you lot, I hope it is not representative of the character of your movement.
Name one instance of real life communism that wasn’t authoritarian.
Tankies are not leftists
based on my observations so far pretty much everyone getting called ‘tankie’ on lemmy is a leftist, and many of the people most vocally opposed to ‘tankies’ on lemmy act a lot like crypto fascists.
I for sure have seen liberals throwing that word around thinking commie and tankie are interchangeable. We however use the term correctly.
My experience is that those that complain the loudest about this tend to be obvious tankies in their comment history. I’ve seen many be angry at how the word is used and then have posts on .ml where they proudly call themselves a tankie.
Most of the people we ban are worse than you, and call ukrainians vermins, some deny the tiananmen square massacre, or make bogus claims about how communist the CCP or russia today is. They are almost always from .ml.
.ml absolutely has a problem with tankies. That you continue to believe that most tankies are just leftists or that your stance on ukraine is not problematic makes it pretty clear who you are.
I’m ‘problematic’ because I have had family directly affected. As a result I am not going to be dogmatically committed to seeing a war prolonged when all that is being accomplished is normal people dying on both sides while war industries and profiteers make money hand over fist.
The only wars that don’t end with diplomacy are the ones where we all end up dead.
Ok, well the war could end today if Putin leaves. The only nation not trying to end it is Russia. They started it, and they’re prolonging it.
But I suppose it has been awhile since a Russian ruler has killed millions of his own people, Putin probably figured it was due.
It was mostly for your comment defending the other poster, and for the axe grinding comment. That combined with your stance that ukraine should not defend itself against russian aggression in your comment history made your comments read as you defending tankies.
You were also warned prior to the ban yet continued to make comments in the same vein as before.
I’m opposed to all inter-capitalist wars. Sounds like the real issue is that I have a nuanced take on Ukraine in my post history more so than any of the things I said in the thread.
The advice on offer in that thread reeks of terminally online in a way that is extremely unlikely to accomplish anything productive in real life other than isolating yourself into increasingly small cliques.
Maybe you should add “no dissent allowed” to the rules so it’s more clear that it’s a cj comm
I got “nuanced” and “terminally online”, now I just need ”reactionary” for my tankie bingo card.
We already have a no authoritarian rule in the sidebar, so that won’t be necessary
If you’re openly saying that you don’t tolerate any dissent in your community, then it sounds like you’re acting as an authoritarian. Perhaps it’s time to ban yourself 🤔
What an assboggling stupid take. I gotta credit you, it takes real skill to be so dumb.
Even outside of this specific instance, they’re saying any dissenting opinion can result in a ban. If you think it’s normal, you can enjoy your echo chambers.
Not tolerating tankies doesn’t make it an echo chamber any more than not tolerating nazis does. That’s such a bullshit argument, and tankies always use it. You’re probably patting yourself on the back right now, but to the rest of Lemmy you just look like a particularly satisfied idiot.
Not tolerating tankies and not tolerating any dissent are two completely different things. I’m specifically calling out the later. When suggested to add a “no dissent rule”, the mod respond that they already had that covered. It sounds like reddit-admin kind of behavior.
Anyways, like many I consider it solved with the contract of tolerance. You aren’t covered by the contract anymore if you go not tolerating people. Any benefits extended to you by the contract only apply as long as you agree to be tolerant.
We also ban for transphobia or for being a fascist. Is that banning all dissent as well?
From your other responses to this post, it seems like your primary beef with Diva was their anti-war stances in their post history. You can’t play the paradox-of-tolerance card in response to that. To make your other strawmen relatable, are you saying Diva’s comments are in any way fascist or transphobic? I haven’t seen any intolerance in Diva’s posts.
What I’m directly responding to is the exchange with the “no dissent allowed” rule suggestion, and you basically saying you already got that covered. Squashing all dissent is authoritarian, and you referenced your “no authoritarian” rule when responding with this. I don’t believed I ever joined in one of these PTB discussions before, but this was just too much. Can you not see the irony?
My issue was not primarily the anti war stance, but that in combination with staunchly defending tankies. Tankies are intolerant by their very nature (as in their ideology is intolerant), and so Diva was banned for defending the intolerant and for likely being a tankie herself.
Looking over her comments here I am less sure that she is a tankie, but she for sure thinks being one is okay and is really into defending them. Again, the point of the anti-tankie rules is to not give tankies a platform.
Sure, it’s your community, so you ban who you like. You don’t need to justify it to me.
I tried steering the conversation back to my actual point, but it seems like all that was ignored. I thought your rule exchange was funny and incredibly ironic. You might enjoy banning any dissenting opinions, but don’t be surprised when that earns you an “authoritarian” label.
I’m not here to tell them how to run their comm
And yet here you are. I took a brief look at their sidebar rules and it’s pretty clear that you broke one or two of their rules. I don’t think that’s a power trip. That’s moderation. The Tankie Triad are also very heavily moderated.
I took a brief look at their sidebar rules and it’s pretty clear that you broke one or two of their rules.
Is not taking the ‘the tankie triad’ fearmongering seriously breaking the rules? I’m pretty clearly opposed to all inter-capitalist wars
the Tankie Triad are also very heavily moderated.
whataboutism, also it’s not nearly to this degree
also it’s not nearly to this degree
Hilarious
Not to brag, but I have it on good authority that I am extremely funny. 😏
Yeah, I’m sure Stalin would love you. полезные дураки.
You can take whatever you want seriously or not seriously. It might get deleted depending on where you post it.
I think the mod is maybe too sensitive on this topic. I’d go with BPR since there seems to be more context missing.
A lot of communities outside the “tankie triad” kind of autoremove anything that looks slightly suspicious coming from a “tankie triad” instance. I understand your POV but I don’t think it really reflects poorly on the moderators. BPR.
hmm maybe do you think that trans people could work together instead of being divided along ideological lines by liberals that at best use us for political points and do nothing substantial in our favor or at worst actively genocide us
Perhaps they could if tankies weren’t supporting countries that severely limit LGBT rights.
YDI.
Lemmy.blahaj.zone specifically is for trans folks. You’re not going to make friends there defending authoritarianism, and it’s part of their actual rules.
They also ban based on what your account does outside of their instance, and more than just this specific instance has you defending tankies (and it looks like, on cursory glance, you identify as one) so that would lead to a banning.
Don’t worry though, there are a lot of folks banned from there who are sour about it who’ll be along shortly to say PTB.
Lemmy.blahaj.zone specifically is for trans folks.
yes I know, I’m trans.
it looks like, on cursory glance, you identify as one
I’m an anarchist, I organize with anarchists, have done so for years. This level of dogmatism as ‘anti-authoritarianism’ I have only run into in a handful of online spaces.
YDI you went to a thread with a specific anti-tankie topic in a comm that is explicitly no tankies
The definition of ‘tankie’ is pretty clearly arbitrary and vibes based. I’m an anarchist, I’ve organized with anarchists for years. Sorry if I don’t pass some terminally online litmus test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereo
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/tankie
(politics, slang, derogatory, by extension) A supporter of policies and actions by the Soviet Union, China, Cuba or other authoritarian socialist (chiefly Marxist-Leninist) governments.
I support the positive changes for society that happen regardless of the government, however ultimately all of them are still going to be representing a hierarchy to be dismantled at the end of the day.
I have a long litany of criticism for all of the countries listed, but this is is not an appropriate place to get into that. Generally any nuance gets lost from the conversation as soon as some online demagogue declares that it’s either total ideological conformity or you’re a tankie.
Not to get condescending, I try to avoid being dogmatic myself, but it’s a comfortable impulse. Actual human interaction requires curiosity, tolerance and not treating broad groups of people like a monolith. Like you can discard legitimate advice because you don’t like the messengers, but in the end it’s you who is worse off for it.
I do not think I have seen you once criticize China or Russia, because if you had you would be more in line with me than you think.
Every government has done things worthy of praise and condemnation. To me an anarchist, at the very least, would be shitting on all the governments from the US to the CCP to the DPRK and everywhere in between
But I don’t see that from you or any other known tankie who also claims to be an anarchist. You have a pretty clear pattern of criticizing the West and then covering for what should be criticized of the CCP/Russia/NK etc.
Maybe this comes because I prefer local political organizing, but I live in the US right now, my current government is the one I have the biggest issues with, and thus I voice them online because it’s relevant to me. The current government in Russia sucks ass, what do you want me to say? if I was living there I’d probably be getting persecuted for being trans. It actually sucks because even apart from this war it makes it almost impossible for me to visit family.
I actually have some optimism for china it’s true, but like many places there’s issues, I’m not in favor of territorial land grabs in general, no matter the US provocation. They can also be very conservative but it’s also hard for me to judge honestly from the other side of the planet and not speaking the language. I have seen enough trans people in china talking about their experience to say that it’s possible to live a life there as a trans person- it just takes having a supportive family. Unless you want to end up homeless that’s also generally the case in the US. I don’t like seeing forced labor, but the american alternative next door was two decades of occupying afghanistan. I disapprove of prisons that turn prisoners into slave labor, but if the alternative is decades of widespread counter-insurgency and indiscriminate bombings I think I’m also capable of pointing to the lesser evil.
You’ve said more than every tankie I’ve ever seen, I don’t even think you’re that much of a tankie. You’ve always been the “odd one out” tankie whenever I’ve seen you around.
Do you honestly not see what the folks you defend say? Just saying “Russia sucks” earnestly like that, is probably the first time I’ve seen that. The closest I’ve ever seen out of a tankie was similar to “even if they are that bad, it’s totally worth it because the West is sooo much worse…”
This has got to be the first politically related comment from you I’ve ever upvoted. Ya know Diva I’ve never tagged you as a tankie or defender like the others, I could never find a proper tag for your profile, your comments are always…odd with what I’ve come to expect from tankies and their defenders.
I’ll take the compliment, I do try to be level-headed.
Do you honestly not see what the folks you defend say?
I’ve actually lurked on hexbear for some time, specifically because I was getting a feel for the culture. I haven’t seen anything I would classify as ‘patriotic’ socialism. Those types get roundly mocked when they show up. There are a lot of positive opinions of the USSR, but I haven’t seen anyone seriously saying Russia in the current day is anything but a reactionary hellhole to live in. They generally will point to the dissolution of the USSR and the liberalization of the economy as part of the reason for that, and frankly I would agree with that assessment.
Yeah I don’t quite get this at all. There are some pretty openly vile tankies on the tankie instances. There’s one in the other post right now lambasting libertarian socialism and proudly supporting dictatorship. I don’t understand why anyone would defend these people.
I truly do hope you are an anarchist. However most anarchists tend to be in favor of shooting the people trying to kill you and annex you into their dictatorship. Perhaps there is something about your stance I don’t understand.
In either case, I stand by that Clocks was making light of the oppression of dictatorships, and that suggesting that tankies and leftists only minorly disagree is tankie apologia. Defending that and then telling someone that the tankie problem on the tankie instances is overblown does make you look like a tankie to me. Also remember that you were banned for your last comments after you were warned, not for your first comment making fun of the term tankie triad.
If this is wrong I apologize, but I don’t really see any other way to read you based on your behavior so far.
Edit: I do sympathize with your anti profiteering stance and that you want to reduce the death count, but I can’t really see russia not killing people after annexing ukraine.
I truly do hope you are an anarchist.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t get into specifics, I would rather not have to deal with IRL harassment. I’ve been at antiwar organizing since Iraq. It comes from an anarchist position, any war be it colonization or inter-capitalist conflict more broadly is always going to benefit capitalists first while killing countless workers in the process with nothing to show in the end but heightened exploitation and division. War should be opposed regardless of the narrative because it’s a tremendous waste of human life and resources, not to mention a distraction from addressing global issues like climate change and pandemics. War is always the hallmark of a political-diplomatic failure. I’ve worked with a lot of different people over the years, you’re never going to agree with everyone 100% because that’s just being human but you can still be friends and share common cause as long as there’s mutual respect and understanding.
most anarchists tend to be in favor of shooting the people trying to kill you and annex you into their dictatorship
I don’t have any issue with that, if people want to fight they should fight. However that’s not all that’s been happening, they have been drafting/kidnapping people to the front for some time. Ukrainians are not a monolith and there’s plenty who would rather not die defending lines on a map. I don’t think any anarchist should approve of a state under martial law pressing people into service. I understand that it’s a necessary evil in many situations, after all many anarchist revolutions have also used conscription. Don’t kid yourself that it’s ‘anti-authoritarian’ to be drafting people to your cause though.
Don’t kid yourself that it’s ‘anti-authoritarian’ to be drafting people to your cause though.
Rest assured that I do not
That’s a pretty wild take, since there are TONS of Ukranian anarchists on the front lines, and they’re there quite willingly. They recognize that Russia is, by far, the greater evil.
War is always [emphasis added] the hallmark of a political-diplomatic failure
Um. That’s a… Statement. It’s an objectively false statement, but it’s a statement.
Let’s take the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Pray tell, what political or diplomatic failure happened, and how could it have been prevented while also allowing Ukraine to determine their own future and move towards the EU in the way that the people of Ukraine wanted? Or, to put it more succinctly, where is the political or diplomatic failure in standing up to a bully?
Russia started the war. That’s an undeniable fact. The only way to avoid the war would have been for Ukraine to simply roll over and accept a Russian dictatorship. If you think that not capitulating to a dictatorship is a failure, well, that’s a bad-faith claim.
there are TONS of Ukranian anarchists on the front lines, and they’re there quite willingly.
They may be, but there’s plenty more people who don’t share that conviction drafted into service under martial law. Why are they obligated to sacrifice themselves? It’s been years, the mobilization is incredibly unpopular at this point.
Um. That’s a… Statement. It’s an objectively false statement, but it’s a statement.
Technically correct but more so because warfare has existed long before diplomacy/state politics. In the modern context I think it holds up though.
When it comes to Russia invading ukraine, the root cause political-diplomatic failure stems from the dissolution of the USSR without ever incorporating Russia into the security agreements. To destabilize a government to the point of collapse like that, then swoop in with the shock doctrine looting only created the conditions for someone like Putin to consolidate control. If they had continued to let Russia join NATO after the fall of the USSR and took a less adversarial approach overall there would almost certainly be considerably fewer dead people right now. It would probably be an austerity-crippled reactionary hellhole. The thing is our weapons industry needs to have constant geopolitical tension to justify its own existence. A politics centering global collaboration and reconciliation is incompatible with endless war profits.
If you think that not capitulating to a dictatorship is a failure, well, that’s a bad-faith claim.
I don’t think you understood my statement, not really sure what this line means either.
PTB this mod has not even read their own sidebar!
Assume the best, but don’t tolerate sealioning/just asking questions/concern trolling.
Don’t rush mod actions. If a case doesn’t need to be handled right away, consider taking a short break before getting to it. This is to say, cool down and make room for feedback
Send users concise DMs about verdicts about them, such as bans etc, except in cases where it is clear we don’t want them at all, such as obvious transphobes. No need to notify someone they haven’t been banned of course.
Explain to a user why their behavior is problematic and how it is distressing others rather than engage with whatever they are saying. Ask them to avoid this in the future and send them packing if they do not comply.
First warn users, then temp ban them, then finally perma ban them when they break the rules or act inappropriately. Skip steps if necessary.
The rules are pretty loose, I did get one DM, though this bit at the end opens up a lot of room for arbitrary/vibes based enforcement:
Skip steps if necessary.
I guess ‘it was necessary’
The DM I sent
The guidelines are specifically called guidelines, not rules. I’m unsure what important steps you feel I skipped. We did not rush mod actions, f.ex. We had a chat about what to do in our mod chat.
We sent a warning, but chose not to tell you about the ban, as we figured you were out for drama.
We explained how you broke the rules and what not to do.
We warned you first, then banned you. We always permaban tankies due to our no tolerance policy.
we figured you were out for drama.
from the rules:
Assume the best, but don’t tolerate sealioning/just asking questions/concern trolling.
🤔 don’t think I was doing any of those
I think I’ve made it clear that I read you as a tankie?
Yeah, that was clear, hence my position on arbitrary/vibes based enforcement. you followed your rules, they lend themself towards that
It’s right there in the sidebar:
Proselytization, support, or defense of authoritarianism is not welcome. This includes but is not limited to: imperialism, nationalism, genocide denial, ethnic or racial supremacy, fascism, Nazism, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, etc.
Tankies are defined as authoritarian “communists”
That’s fine. Except the posters in question were not supporting authoritarianism at all, they were suggesting that one gets more flies with honey than with vinegar in trying to convince those who do believe in or support authoritarianism that their position sucks.
Vibes based, I spoke up for Clocks who had offered earnest and positive advice for interacting with people you disagree in real life, without alienating them. If you treat all real life interpersonal interactions like an online purity test I can see why you spend so much time here worried about ‘tankies’
tbh you lot are exhibiting behavior I normally see reserved for cults.
“Vibes based” hilarious considering I’ve been collecting actual hard documentation of what y’all say and do, and it’s right in line with the definition of a tankie
I’ve been collecting actual hard documentation
😳 are you posting from the blackout van that’s been parked up the street from me?
I replied in the other post, but I did indeed follow the guidelines (I should know, I wrote them!)
Removed by mod
