Very similar to those who refer to women as “uterus-havers”. Pretty much the same.
No matter what you say there will be complaints.
I refer to them as laaaaydeeeees
Honest question from a non native: what is wrong with the term female?
And what word could you use for the sex girls and women are part of where people wouldn’t imagine you look like a space neolib?
Non-native as well but for me, “female” is an adjective and only used as a noun in technical setting. If used in regular conversation setting, it’s condescending and dehumanizing.
Good:
- There are fifteen females in the survey.
- The female is more aggressive, typical of hyenas.
- You bought the wrong USB cable, this one is a female.
Bad:
- This female is not very good at her job.
- You females need to tone it down.
I’ll be real here: no one irl cares, we’re so careless with our language people understand what you mean more by vibes than vocabulary. I’ve not heard a single person take umbrage with female outside of the internet.
Female is still an acceptable term in some context: eg, when referring to the social group on a societal level, female can be fine, also for identifying someone’s genetic/biological sex as “female” for medical/official contexts, that’s still okay in most cases.
Where it’s not okay is to use it on an individual level or to refer to a small group of ladies. The term is seem as cold, clinical, and in some cases, dehumanizing. It comes off as boiling down a person to their function in reproduction and nothing more. “You are the female and you carry children.” Kind of thing. Like women are some kind of bakery for your crotch goblins, and not people worthy of respect.
But something like “the female population of the country” is fairly okay, since you’re referring to the entirely of the people who identify as female, not an individual or small group of individuals.
At least, that’s my take. I’m just some guy. If any women want to correct me, I defer to your judgement and opinion, and happily retract any contradictory statements I may have made. I am always happy to be corrected.
Okay I understand.
So “books with female protagonists” would be okay (because large group referenced) “Bus with female passengers” would be considered rude, because small group referenced, you would rather say “Bus with women and girls as passengers” ?
More or Less. I would think of it more as a third person direct versus indirect. Third person direct being: referring to a specific set of people, eg, they’re in the room with you, where calling them females would be rude… Third person indirect, where you’re mentioning the concept of that group of people while not citing a specific or present subset of that group, would be rude.
You’ve made some good examples. Overall I think you understand the concept I was trying to get across.
Short answer: It’s a turn of phrase the Incel movement popularized as a dehumanizing dogwhistle.
Long answer: In current American English, “Female” and “Females” are highly formal terms and really are only commonly used in situations like law and academic discourse (this is true of “male” and “males” as well, though there’s much less cultural baggage associated with those terms). People who use them in casual conversation instead of the much more common “Women” (or the diminutive, “Girls”) tend to be the kind of person that uses formal language to emphasize their own intellectual superiority over the common masses, and in particular all the women who won’t have sex with them. In fact and almost invariably, this is presented in the form of explanations about why nobody wants to have sex with them, and the cultural forces that are causing it, and why deep down it’s the women’s fault they can’t get a date, and it just all goes downhill from there.
edit: clarity
I recently watched The Orville, and immediately think of the Moclans and their Ultra-Misogyny
Clyden!!!
I was once explaining to someone how a group of my family is part of a “religion” which is really a cult. I was saying how females (being inclusive of the adult women and young girls) in this cult have no body autonomy and how fucked up it is. I was interrupted to be informed that the term female should not be used. They interrupted my explanation of how my fucking family member is being forced to get pregnant over and over, how the girls are being treated like property or pets, because correcting my use of the word female was more important. I will never forget or forgive this moment. I hope this anecdote highlights priorities for everyone that has such a strong opinion about this. Also, I imagine if I wasn’t male, this would have been a nonissue. I don’t know about anyone else, but I actually do want equality. Double standards are outdated.
Context is important. In your case, you’re using female to designate a biological characteristic - aka, a reproductive ability that the cult is specifically exploiting. Some men, especially online, use “female” in a way where normally someone would use the term “woman”, in an attempt to dehumanize women. It’s unfortunate that the person you were talking to couldn’t tell the difference, but as for never forgiving them, maybe a gentle correction could be more warranted?
I will never forget or forgive this moment.
(emphasis mine) Moments where someone’s heart was in the right place are the most forgivable for me
If I could choose my reaction it mighttttttt be akin to….
“LOL did you just knee jerk reaction b/c ‘female’ is word of the week on fascist social media? Well thanks for caring but this will derail us for a thirty-second language & comprehension lesson…”
“Hey, bigots say this and it makes people sound like bigots when they say it”
“I used that word correctly and was told that it made me sound like a bigot. Maybe think about that?”
Cool, maybe get mad at the bigots who ruined the word for people rather than the people saying the word was ruined by bigots.
It’s like when people get mad at the r-slur being a slur now. Like, no, it was always intended as an insult based on medical language. It was always going to become a slur.
Now people are using the word female to both alienate and other women in their language and to “sound smarter” when showing bigotry. Also, you were probably told to not say it because they knew you were better than the assholes who say it in a demeaning way. Maybe… think about that?
How about we just stop letting bigots have every fucking word and don’t assume negative qualities about people from an insignificant distinction, cultures are different and just assuming someone is a bigot because they used the word female in a proper context is absolutely idiotic and counter productive to actually fighting real bigotry
Never assumed this person was a bigot. The point being made is that “female” is now a dog whistle word for the alt-right. Dog whistles by themselves aren’t proof that someone is a bigot, but they are still words associated with bigotry.
You can’t control what words become dog-whistles (Jean-Paul Sartre quote “But they(anti-semites) are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words”) but you can acknowledge that they ARE dog whistles without it being some moral failing to point it out.
I am talking more generally, not just you in this instance.
We shouldn’t keep seeding ground to fascists over which words are “theirs” a simple and inconsequential example is Pepe the frog, there is nothing inherently racist about it and there are hordes of wholesome pepe memes, but someone decided that because it also gets coopted by fascists and racists that now pepe is actually a symbol for racism.
This is idiotic that we are HANDING bad actors the right to own words and ideas by self policing.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t see how you can do that. Well, I kind of do, that’s by “taking the word back”, poisoning the meaning of the word or its association so that hateful people won’t want to be associated with it. I know it’s definitely not shaming people for calling out that it’s a dog whistle. Because, again, that puts the moral failing on the person calling it out rather than the people who gave it the negative association to begin with.
That quickly becomes “ugh, these fucking SJWs policing everyone’s speech” instead of “ugh, these fucking losers ruining perfectly good words with their hatred”, which it should be.
I agree there isn’t an easy answer, I just don’t think giving them power over the words is actually helping anyone, because it does turn into the SJW situation like you pointed out.
Humungus Wut intensifies
It devolved into people MAKING problems were there wasn’t actually one by assuming negative intent.
Cool, maybe get mad at the bigots who ruined the word for people rather than the people saying the word was ruined by bigots.
A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: “I am sorry, but I couldn’t help myself. It’s my character.”
good luck getting the bigots to change.
Who said anything about getting them to change? Getting mad at people because the word changed instead of getting mad at the people who changed the word is my point. There’s a reason why that word was targeted as a dog whistle, but it is still a dog whistle now and acknowledging that it is isn’t some moral wrong.
Honestly, a handsome specimen of the Ferengi species. I hear he was even the Grand Nagus briefly. And look at those lobes.
Cool it over there. I look like that but I don’t call women females. That was very unwarranted.
You’re just encouraging me to refer to women as “females” with this.
No stupid questions time: This kind of lurks in the back of my mind and I sometimes find myself hesitating to use the term “female” to refer to female figures in any context. I don’t have to do that, right? Like, would “woman lawyer” be better than “female lawyer” in contexts where specifying gender might be relevant? I would conversely prefer the term “male lawyer” in the same context and “man lawyer” sounds just as odd to me as “woman lawyer”. “Lawyer who is a woman” is a little verbose, too. Am I overthinking this?
Sorry but “woman” is not an adjective and its use that way is grating. You wouldn’t say “man teacher” and it sounds wrong. So does “woman lawyer” or “woman voter.”
The neckbeard/incel thing is using “female” when “woman” would be acceptable and more common, like “look at these females” or something. It doesn’t mean we have to abolish the word “female” entirely from the lexicon.
Yeah, that seems to align nicely with the instincts I outlined in my comment. No need to apologize. Thanks!
My personal rule is female adjective is okay, female noun is not.
From what I googled, it’s especially bad when you pair “man” and “female” together, which makes sense to me.
Just don’t use male or female as nouns to refer to humans. That simple. If you’re talking about animals it doesn’t matter.
If you’re talking about animals it doesn’t matter.
Not even that it doesn’t matter, it’s almost entirely the point. The reason why using ‘females’ as a noun to refer to women is dehumanizing is because it’s a noun we use for animals.
Yes you’re over thinking this. A woman lawyer is just a lawyer. Same how a male lawyer is just a lawyer. Unless the gender of the person is important, leave it out of their job title. Use the word actor to describe both men and women who act. Flight attendant for men and women, or receptionist, or any other word. The vast majority of time you can leave their gender out of the description and it’s fine.
Best be safe and call them “girl lawyer”
My personal take is to just use lawyer, when gender is irrelevant. This may get your audience confused when using “she” in the next sentence. But it could help weaken the stereotypes about genders if we did this more often IMHO.
If needed “female lawyer” or “lawyer who is a woman” are good otherwise.I know, use the worst of all options, “lawyeress.” /s
When we’re driving, my wife often acts as a navigatrix
Waiter = Waitress
Lawyer = LawyressLawyer femoid 😒
lawyeoid 😏
I work in statistics and we never use girl of woman, only female. The line is vastly different in age and meaning depending on culture, religion, law, or heritage. Even in western societ, 13, 16, 18, and 21 are all valid before tipping to 40, 50, 60, 65, 68, and 70 where the term can be prefixed with some form of adjective.
It’s old-fashioned. Just say female and every culture/society understands you without confusion or insult. Save you embarassing/insulting people while travelling too.
They’re just called lawyers, unless they’re lawyering with their genitals and their sex is somehow relevant.
There are obviously still contacts where the distinction is important.
Such as discussing discrimination, statistics, etc
Maybe from an equity perspective, but not from a lawyer perspective. So you’d probably say “we need more women in law”.
Because the topic is women. If the topic was lawyering, then sex won’t come up.
Immediate scenario that came to mind here is
The client demanded any other public defender, as long as they weren’t black or female.
“70% of lawyers suffer discrimination in the workplace but only 30% of lawyers face discrimination.”
“single female lawyer fighting for justice and also being single,”
That’s a deep reference. Very nice.
I’m a nostalgia sniper today
Not fair to the military veterans.
They got “That’s not a woman, it’s a female soldier” drilled into them.
“Female” is fine as an adjective. It’s when it’s used as a noun that it becomes a problem. But that’s not a new rule or anything.
Consider when someone says “Black people” vs “the Blacks”.
That may be but if they would shorten “female soldier”, wouldn’t they refer to her as “a soldier” and not “a female”?
Yes, we heard “that is just a soldier” as well. They just didn’t like the terms lady or woman, you had to use “female”.
it’s an adjective, not a noun. but I hear it everywhere, mostly on newscasts and other broadcasts. so I just call em ‘broads’ (/s)
You can’t call chicks ‘broads’ anymore, its not civilized. (/s)
I prefer to call’em dames.
Soldiers have a lot more than that drilled into them. Obeying authority, pushing down your own emotions, lots of shit.
I would never be a soldier. A fighter if needed, but not joining any traditional military. It will kill your soul.
After having been in the military, it’s weird to hear people talk about the military who have never served.
Obeying authority? Sure, until ranking up and becoming the authority.
Pushing down emotions? More like learning to have control over our emotions, where those emotions do not control us.
Never be a soldier, but a fighter if needed?
That’s basically what I did. Most military jobs are non-combat that are trained to fight if needed but if they are needed than we’ve got way bigger problens than just fighting.
It will kill your soul? I for one certainly have regrets, but my soul feels intact.
Not everyone should join the military, it’s certainly not for everyone. Some people who thought it was all they ever wanted to do find out quickly that it’s not for them and leave. Others who thought they’d just join for 4 years for the college money and bail end up making a career of it and retire after 20 years.
I’m indifferent, I just did my 4 years and got out.
Fair points. Its just that so many soldiers seem to he traumatized by what they experience. If you didnt see much combat, of course you wont be affected by that.
I would fight for a good leader. Someone with wisdom, courage, integrity. Those people are very rare.
None of the us presidents, or any world leaders meet that bar.
Though only 10% of the military serves in direct combat roles, those who actually serve in combat can certainly be traumatized by their experience.
The silver lining of serving in the military is that we are obligated not to follow illegal orders and the path to gaining rank in the military more often than not will instill wisdom and integrity after having their courage tested.
I am thankful to have served with so many servicemembers who demonstrated their wisdom, integrity, and courage and stood up for what they knew was right even when the people we elect are unable to do the same.
Yeah I can imagine. I just hope the current administration doesnt make it legal to do horrible things.
And from friends personal experiences. Your back and knees die in the service.
Knew a guy that got the one-two punch of being a soldier then being a cop. Would describe people like “male, Caucasian, average build” when we were out at bars.
The language culture is probably the strangest part about the military, and probably the police force as well. I know the military lingo was hard to stop using, but I couldn’t imagine going from one institutional language to the next.
It’s a useful skill to have if you’re able to master it, language switching. You can establish credibility/experience or lack of depending on your audience and your intentions.
I’ve never served but sometimes people assume that I have because of how I carry myself. So I’ll avoid phrases and sayings consistent with military personnel, maybe toss in words used in movies and video games to give the impression that my knowledge of the military stems mostly from those.
There are a lot of things unfair to vets, we can add this to the pile
“You let them wear clothes?”
“Men and females.”
Yes that’s the issue, if you use them inconsistently. Males, females. Men, women. Same for boys, girls actually. Saying boys and women or men and girls can seem belittling to the other.
I consistently used males and females in some contexts but I’ve noticed that it often still comes across as weird when talking about humanoids.
Also does anyone find it odd how often society calls grown women girls while they stick to men when referring to men without a second thought? I still do it when I’m not paying attention.
Fun use of “boys” has been really popular for quite some time. Me and the boys. Boys will be boys.
Hell, a business or industry run primarily by men in their fifties and older can be referred to as “a boys club.”
I hear almost daily how the older secretary and HR women call the workers “boys”, I think it’s quite endearing but tbh it doesn’t have the same history of belittling really.
‘Guys’ even tho the singular is used to mean a man, is really an a-gendered plural
Those are specific phrases but yeah I getcha. And you could argue, like some other replies said, sometimes “boys” is used in casual ways, “girls” is used as an equivalent to “guys”, it can mean “gals” too. Fair points but I do believe people have some kind of aversion to “woman/women” and won’t ever use if in a fun context. it’s just an uptight sounding word for some reason.
Stereotypically, women always strive to look as young as possible, so calling one a girl can be seen as a compliment. While men, stereotypically strive to appear mature, hence calling one a boy can be considered an insult.
I don’t disagree with you that society does think that way, but I disagree with the sentiment so much.
I’m 33 and afab. I accepted being called a “girl” until I was about 23 (probably not a coincidence that that was the age at which I graduated college), but it started chafing at like 16, even though I didn’t have a good alternative at the time (because I agree that “female” as a noun feels gross). If someone called me a girl now I would correct them without hesitation in basically every scenario outside of a eulogy or wedding speech.
I really wish there was a better option. I don’t really like “woman,” but it’s better than gal, lady, dudette, chick, or girl imo. I’m perfectly fine with guy or dude, especially in plural, but I’m probably an egg, so that colors my perspective for the singular use a little.
I honestly don’t see this changing any time soon because there are biological incentives behind both stereotypes. And, anecdotally, my gf (40+) will pout if in some context I refer to her as a woman, and be like “noooo, I’m a girl… :(”. Semi-jokingly, of course, but only semi.
Same as the other reply, I don’t disagree. Do I think there’s mal intent? Nah. But I’m sure this has an unconscious effect on how we perceive women. Besides lots of women look young without even trying, I think with the improvement of medicine and public health, people in general are just looking younger nowadays so we should nip this habit in the butt.
I just view it as a quirk of the language. “Guys and girls” or “guys and gals” are paired words. Guy is a casual way to refer to men, so I think people use girl as a casual way to refer to women because it’s sort of the pair to guy. Lady feels too formal.
As a man, this has legit always bugged me. We use “girls” in contexts that we would NEVER use “boys” in, even when they’re the same age.
I have to keep reminding myself of this. I’m in my late 20s and I still slip up when referring to myself sometimes.
